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OMG.

Why do I even bother engaging with these people?

I spent the first 40 years of my life with almost all my body parts intact and functional. I lost a molar to a bad root canal experience once, and I had some tumors excised. Then when I was 40, my leg came off (no, not all by itself), but by that time I had already lived a very full, very complicated life, one which was also a life of absolute able-bodied privilege. Because this is the shape of my life, and because I suspect from the little of your voice that I've read that the shape of your life has been somewhat to very different, I suspect that I have decades of experience being both obvious and invisible in the world which differ dramatically from yours.

I believe, based only on your written voice, that I might be a bit older than you. Notice I do not say that I am more mature, just older, just someone who's been around maybe a bit more, seen more, done more. It's a matter of aggregation, not quality or diversity. The sheer aggregation of real world experiences, over and above the variation in content of each one of mine from each of yours, also must shift my perspective to a different place than yours. If you are in fact older than me, well, same thing. Different aggregations of experience lead to divergent perspective.

The third way in which I believe our perspectives differ is that sex bores me, while you seem to find it quite interesting. I've lived long enough as a woman in America to have been thoroughly saturated with sex. I have already explored sex to the limit of my interest and beyond, bored other people to death talking about it all back when it was of consuming interest to me, and then realized there was other stuff to do and think about, stuff I personally find far more diverting, and moved on. I truly don't care if other people have sex or what kind, as long as it's consensual. However, unless a person talking about sex in my earshot right now is someone I'm sleeping with, or unless they present their tale with particular beauty, love, or humor, I now find I have other things to spend my consciousness upon. As Twisty once put it, I'm just not interested in hearing about other people's "sweaty little hobby."

I am tired. Fucking bone-tired. Of sex-positive perspectives being called silly and immature (oh sorry, "less aggregated" or whatfuckingever.)
I am tired. Fucking bone-tired. Of people who are not interested in sex acting as though those of us who *are*, in a world in which PWD are routinely treated as strange ethereal asexual creatures, are foolish children who should not speak in front of their betters.

I'm so damn upset by this I'm shaking.

Do not assume my disability is invisible.
Do not assume I've not spent nearly thirty years being stared at myself. You know what? I was born like this. I don't have a "normal" to go back to. All that very full life that you spent not being stared at? I spent being asked what the hell happened.
Do not assume my sexuality makes me immature and frivolous.

Do not --

-- oh why the fuck do I bother?

In a world where sex and sexuality are routinely treated as "a sweaty little hobby"

who the fuck am I kidding?

I hate how these things start as perfectly reasonable discussions and then suddenly the Martian logic shows up. "I'm older, so I'm supersaturated with sex" 

implying:

You disagree, so I know either your age, your maturity level, or both

and:

All women reach a point at which libido becomes silly. I know tons of women whose sexuality never did that stereotypical shutoffing thing at middle age. Do they count?

If I don't shut off myself, will I count? Or will I be the freak menopause didn't do the right things to? I've already been the freak puberty didn't do the right things to, so I'll feel right at home, I'm sure.

But I won't be alone, if that happens. Pinky swear. I won't be.

Y'know, saraarts: The feminists who twitter about sex and porn think we the pornified have won. We haven't.

And you know why we haven't? Because most people, in the end, treat sex and sexuality like you. As something that becomes frippery after a certain age.

If you need me I'll be over here in Fuckland, boiling over with the senseless rage of youth.

Comments

( 37 comments — Leave a comment )
not_in_denial
Jul. 10th, 2007 03:50 am (UTC)
The ageism, the ablism (both internal and external), the sex-negative attitude.

I want to run that person over with my scooter.

I can't even think of a coherent response to all of that nonsense. Bloody hell.
fierceawakening
Jul. 10th, 2007 03:52 am (UTC)
Thank you so damn much.

I was so shocked when I saw Blue saying "don't apologize" and "rock on." I wondered if I was just overreacting.

So thanks.
(no subject) - thegimpparade - Jul. 10th, 2007 11:23 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fierceawakening - Jul. 11th, 2007 02:50 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - cheshire_bitten - Jul. 10th, 2007 04:39 am (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
fierceawakening
Jul. 10th, 2007 04:18 am (UTC)
And y'know, I'm don't have tons of "aggregate life experiece" (whatever the fuck that means) but I bet you bundles of money that I have much less interest in sex than she does and I've managed to gather enough life experience to figure out that believing things that I, personally am uninterested in are therefore silly and trivial is the number one way to be an asshole.

Pardom me while I glomp you in massive hugature.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.
(no subject) - belledame222 - Jul. 10th, 2007 01:55 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fierceawakening - Jul. 10th, 2007 02:48 pm (UTC) - Expand
cheshire_bitten
Jul. 10th, 2007 04:37 am (UTC)
urge to shake that women until she stopps being so annoying, rising... rising.... trying to jump though the internet to shake her......

Fine, have you so much better than me attitude, I will be over here selling out the feminist cause and degrading myself, you have fun with what ever the hell it is you are doing.
morgan_dhu
Jul. 10th, 2007 04:50 am (UTC)
Hang on - is this person suggesting that as a post-menopausal woman I was supposed to stop finding sex, both as an activity and as one of the vital forces that drives people, to be anything more than a "sweaty little hobby" that other, less mature people are interested in while I go on about my pursuits, which are more worthy of spending my consciousness on?

Well the ageism in that - both the internalized ageism that says older women are "beyond that sort of thing" and the externalized agism that is telling other women/people that they are just too immature to have gotten beyond it, is appalling.

Setting aside my own delight in the pleasures of the body, sweaty or not, there is the fact that as long as sex is important enough for other people to want to demonise, marginalise, maim, imprison, or kill people who do it differently than they do, it's important enough to fight for sexual freedom with all I have in me.


fierceawakening
Jul. 10th, 2007 04:58 am (UTC)
Hang on - is this person suggesting that as a post-menopausal woman I was supposed to stop finding sex, both as an activity and as one of the vital forces that drives people, to be anything more than a "sweaty little hobby" that other, less mature people are interested in while I go on about my pursuits, which are more worthy of spending my consciousness on?

That's what it sounds like to me.

Well the ageism in that - both the internalized ageism that says older women are "beyond that sort of thing" and the externalized agism that is telling other women/people that they are just too immature to have gotten beyond it, is appalling.

*nodsnods*

Setting aside my own delight in the pleasures of the body, sweaty or not, there is the fact that as long as sex is important enough for other people to want to demonise, marginalise, maim, imprison, or kill people who do it differently than they do, it's important enough to fight for sexual freedom with all I have in me.

RIGHT ON. Way too many people miss that somehow.
miz_evolution
Jul. 10th, 2007 06:57 am (UTC)
It's a good thing I fear prison...

WHAT THE FUCK? No, really, louder and with feeling...WHAT THE FUCKITY FUCKING FUCK....

(murder is illegal, Ren, murder is illegal, murder is illegal...)

I hate condescending holier than thou types of all sorts, and that person? Yeah, they count. What once again with the MY is UNIVERSAL, YOURS means ALL OF JACK AND SHIT...

Hello, assholes...to some of us sex is not some petty little hobby, it's a huge part of who we are, and if that offends thine no longer renewing worldly selves...gee, we're not sorry...
fierceawakening
Jul. 10th, 2007 02:41 pm (UTC)
Hello, assholes...to some of us sex is not some petty little hobby, it's a huge part of who we are

Exactly.

And the thing is I NEVER SAID anywhere in my discussion that everyone should be sexual. I felt that I was being really careful to acknowledge that I'm a pervert, I'm off the chart strange, etc.

I wasn't saying something like "make policy according to my opinion." I was saying "Hey, here's a minority opinion I hope you'll take into account."
miz_evolution
Jul. 10th, 2007 07:11 am (UTC)
And ANOTHER THING...
Sorry, Trin, but rant mode is on, and well....

So she doesn't like a sexy PwD photo because it portrays the woman in questions as "just another skinny bottle blonde with her ass in the air", as "fuckable" and what ever the hell else?

NICE MANPIG SPEAK THERE, WOMAN! NICE DEHUMANIZATION OF THAT WOMAN, WOMAN! Nice way to make EVERY single fucking woman out here in blog land like ME who is SICK of reading about that woman, or the goddamn PussyCat Dolls or WHOMEVER the fuck else as SEEN through the eyes of REAL WOMAN as nothing more than sexualized hot bimbos with rocks for brains and...

GAH! FUCK. Enraged. Hello, dipshit woman, WOMEN out here are sick as hell of having Mature Intelligent women Like You shitting all over us for the way we like our sex, what we find sexy, and for HOW WE LOOK.

Figure THAT out....

Sincerely: A skinny "fuckable sexy" bottle something other than blonde....
fierceawakening
Jul. 10th, 2007 02:46 pm (UTC)
Re: And ANOTHER THING...
Rant away, my fine fiend... er, friend... er... :)

belledame222
Jul. 10th, 2007 01:24 pm (UTC)
Hey, you know what? That's a lot of verbiage for someone who's -not interested.-

You know what I do when I'm -not interested- in other peoples' "sweaty little hobbies?" professional sports, say? spacebar spacebar spacebar, don't read, don't reply. Because I'm NOT INTERESTED.

ack. sorry she's gotten you so upset.
belledame222
Jul. 10th, 2007 01:26 pm (UTC)
oh and uh yeah, close attention to some pretty innocuous photo of a woman at a runner's starting block and concluding that her "ass in the air" makes her "fuckable" TOTALLY indicates no interest in all the dirty pictures the doc keeps showing you.

file under Someone Else's Problem.
(no subject) - fierceawakening - Jul. 10th, 2007 02:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
belledame222
Jul. 10th, 2007 01:33 pm (UTC)
oh yeah, but, yeah, i'd be enraged too by THIS implication, unless I'm the only one seeing this:

"Unlike you, I lived most of my life as an AB. Which means that, unlike you, I have had a "very full, very complicated life." (you poor dear) (smerk). Which means that, THAT is why I am -not interested- in Teh Sex, of course; any niggling feelings that i might have had that there is something wrong with me, well uh, oh look, let's just dump that onto you, yessss. Because, if YOU had had a very full and very complicated life, you wouldn't be interested in this amusingly sad little trivial -hobby- which for some strange reason i still can't keep talking about, but never mind that, please don't look behind the curtain, we're talking about YOU. Of course."
belledame222
Jul. 10th, 2007 01:38 pm (UTC)
"stop talking about," that was.

oh, and of course, the OTHER implication is,

"my full and complicated life is essentially over now. but, here YOU are, a PWD, and it -sounds- like you are having a full and complicated life, if I could allow myself to listen to it; but I can't, because I can't share that pleasure you take from life for whatever reason, so I'm just going to try to piss all over it and hope no one notices that that's what I'm doing."
(no subject) - fierceawakening - Jul. 10th, 2007 02:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fierceawakening - Jul. 10th, 2007 02:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
belledame222
Jul. 10th, 2007 01:45 pm (UTC)
it is good to see that TF continues to spread her -totally healthy and helpful, totally feminist- community-building energy all over the Internet, though. hey, just remember: it takes a LOT of manure to fertilize the strawberries, and I'm sure we'll all be rolling in strawberries ("after the Revolution you will all eat strawberries and cream, and you will LIKE strawberries and cream!") -any day now.-
night101owl
Jul. 10th, 2007 03:15 pm (UTC)
I've had times when my sex drive has been diminished, and on a regular basis, I know that stress can get in the way. I have no doubt that as my hormones shift as I get older, I might have to work on staying "in my body" and keeping my libido strong.

So I can almost understand women who say that they've decided not to focus on their sex life. That's their choice, and it's valid. But it's not a universal thing that comes with age. I've fisted a fifty year old who is way more of a slut than me (I can only dream I might reach her heights of sluthood), and I know plenty of dirty old dykes who love sex.

Sex is a pleasure for me, and I want to continue to enjoy that pleasure, along with all the other pleasures I can find in this world, for as long as I can.
fierceawakening
Jul. 10th, 2007 03:31 pm (UTC)
I've had times when my sex drive has been diminished, and on a regular basis, I know that stress can get in the way. I have no doubt that as my hormones shift as I get older, I might have to work on staying "in my body" and keeping my libido strong.

Yeah, so have I. I'm scared of losing it again and I worry that I might be one of the "hi, this is Menopause, moving into that room Libido vacated" people.

But the thing is: I don't like that. And whatever happens to me, I don't want to grow to put down what I used to like out of bitterness. That would just be dishonoring to the person I used to be -- which is something I am, even now, very suspicious of doing. It breaks you up and breaks you off and that is not something I have ever found healthy for me.

I've fisted a fifty year old who is way more of a slut than me (I can only dream I might reach her heights of sluthood), and I know plenty of dirty old dykes who love sex.

*grin* yeah, exactly. There are tons of seasoned pervs in the world, and I love them for not settling for a version of older life that wouldn't fulfill them.
(no subject) - lilairen - Jul. 10th, 2007 06:05 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fierceawakening - Jul. 10th, 2007 07:08 pm (UTC) - Expand
amberlr
Jul. 10th, 2007 03:21 pm (UTC)
OMFG.

Projection, much??

And, Condescending with a capital C.

And I love the good ol' (barely disguised) "I'm not telling you what to do, BUT..." meme, and and let's not forget the "You should do what makes you happy (it's just that what makes you happy is silly and boring and unimportant, and any OLDER person would know THAT)".

This part was particularly telling, though: "from the little of your voice that I've read"

If I get time today, I might blog about this, because I'm pretty incensed now. I won't blog about it to give her more attention, though, but rather to highlight and call out an extremely condescending tone I see all the time. "YOUR stuff isn't important... it's JUST sex..."
fierceawakening
Jul. 10th, 2007 03:27 pm (UTC)
Please let me know if you do.
octogalore
Jul. 10th, 2007 06:43 pm (UTC)
The continuing idea that it's somehow feminist to substitute ones own judgment for that of another woman like Mullins, to decide that something she chose is unfeminist or objectifing when she obviously is happy with the choice, is unbelievably hypocritical.

Mullins looks great in the SI article. She seems to have consented to the pictures and portrayal. As you say, it's perfectly legit for a disabled woman to be shown as sexy.

And I don't get Kay's concern in your linked passage about how many prosthetics Mullins has and whether she bought them herself. She probably did, and even if not, what's the problem? I can't imagine Mullins would appreciate being put under a microscope like this, when if SI did an article about a woman who had been given ten pairs of shoes nobody would bat an eye. Women trying to put each other on some kind of feminist ranking system is only a demonstration that any kind of revolution would only result in more of the same.
fierceawakening
Jul. 10th, 2007 07:07 pm (UTC)
I can't imagine Mullins would appreciate being put under a microscope like this

YES.

It's a shame a lot of people understand "objectification" principally as a term about sexualization.
(no subject) - thegimpparade - Jul. 10th, 2007 11:33 pm (UTC) - Expand
octogalore
Jul. 10th, 2007 06:58 pm (UTC)
One other question that strikes me, and this is only speculation, is whether any of this stems from the issues facing women as they age.

My mother, even after menopause (about 50), had a number of boyfriends and, although she never went into TMI territory, I knew she was pretty active sexually. My parents divorced when she was 46 and he was 53 -- she divorced him. She always looked much younger than her age, but had lung cancer at 53 and, although it was caught early and so far everything looks good ten years later, she looked a little closer to her age and lost some confidence after the ordeal. She remains in great shape and doesn't want to be anyone's nursemaid; however, she is having trouble finding men her age who aren't looking for women considerably younger. My dad, now 71, is remarried to a woman who's 54. I found a website a few years ago that had talking condom greeting cards and sent one to my mom, and she said "thanks, that may be the last one of those I ever see."

So I wonder how much of the sex negativity and ageism we are picking up reflects possible cognitive dissonance considering the situation for single women out there. I know a number of women, besides my mom, who continue to be very interested in sex after menopause. (In fact, my mom is putting together a book of what is rumored to be XXX-rated poetry, and I am not allowed to see any of it).

I'm not making any excuses for anyone, just throwing it out. If there's any truth to any of this, it doesn't excuse throwing shaming or belittling language at anyone else, but does suggest that the speaker should be honest that part of the frustration may be life's inequities rather than a younger woman's sex life.
fierceawakening
Jul. 10th, 2007 07:06 pm (UTC)

I'm not making any excuses for anyone, just throwing it out. If there's any truth to any of this, it doesn't excuse throwing shaming or belittling language at anyone else, but does suggest that the speaker should be honest that part of the frustration may be life's inequities rather than a younger woman's sex life.


I thought of that too, but my mind keeps coming back to a post of kactus' a long time ago (not sure where to find it right now and about to flee) in which she mentions that, basically, she lost her libido. That she'd always been very into sex, very sex-pos, etc. and now... nothing. And that she felt about it pretty much like I'd imagine I would in a similar situation: very empty and sad.

And so part of me thinks hey, maybe saraarts, when she says "I used to be really really into sex and now I'm supersaturated with it" actually means "my libido died"

but I don't think so because "supersaturated" sounds like she never really was all that big on it.

either way though: I'm not sure deciding what she means is useful. She may well not be bitter. I'm not anywhere near as interested in her sexuality as I am interested in her assumption that people who are sexual don't have enough life experience to understand how little sex matters really.
(no subject) - octogalore - Jul. 10th, 2007 07:28 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - belledame222 - Jul. 11th, 2007 08:51 am (UTC) - Expand
wreckingboy
Jul. 13th, 2007 06:57 am (UTC)
my favorite vacation was at
Fuckland!
( 37 comments — Leave a comment )

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