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Blog dramas

  • Aug. 6th, 2007 at 10:41 PM
nova
The infamous Heart of womensspace has been getting hacked and harrassed in comments and other such. Her website's message board has been shut down by hackers, purportedly for the following post (not sure who it's by, but I seem to remember something almost identical posted at Biting Beaver's, so I suspect it's her):

I have three sons, ages 16, 15, and 12. I was also in an abusive marriage for ten years in which my 15 year old was a frequent target of my x husband. These boys had a rough time of it, as did we all.

After I left my husband my children acted out for a short time, we all spoke of feeling relief and feeling safe yet there were still some rough spots as I got the hang of trying to do it alone.

Several years ago my accountability program found that the computer had been accessing pornography. Turns out it was my middle son. To date he has been 'caught' accessing pornography many times since then. He was 13 I think when this started.

I banned him from the computer, but after a few months I would allow him to be on it for short periods of time. Each and every single time my son would access pornography within days (and sometimes hours) of being allowed back online. He was aware that he would be caught because the computers are monitored but he chose to do it anyway.

Most recently my youngest son allowed my middle son to play with his PSP. Brandon (the middle child) used it to immediately access pornography online. The child is now banned from computers, video games and so forth. I've talked until I'm blue in the face, I've grown angry and yelled, I've cried when I was alone and when I was in front of him. I've had him read Dworkin, my site, and other places (namely OAG's site) and I still can't unseat this problem. He can recite feminist literature all day long, he can understand the tenets, the ideas behind it, how it links together but he will not allow this knowledge to stand in the way of his porn use.

I don't think I'm looking for advice (I've tried everything I could think of so far) but more a place to simply be sad. I can clearly see why he's looking at pornography, I've figured all that out readily enough, but I can't seem to make it stop.

I know, that as soon as my child leaves my home and moves into his own place that he will be looking at porn immediately. I know that I am raising a problem for women. I know that this child will one day grow and will fully absorb the messages that porn sends to men. I know that my child masturbates to degradation of my people (when I use that phrase I mean womyn) and that with every orgasm he will further solidify his own hatred of and superiority over, women.

I know that there will likely come a day where my son coerces a young woman into sex (rape) and there isn't a damned thing I can do about it. I look into the eyes of my son and they still sparkle like they did when he was a baby, but he's not a baby anymore, he's growing into a man and that man will have trained himself to degrade women before he leaves my home.

As a radical feminist who puts women first I cannot begin to determine what I should do with regards to this issue. My heart breaks because there is nothing I can do to protect the womyn he will come into contact with.

I have three boys. One of them is lost to me and as a mother and a radical womyn this breaks my heart in a way I can scarcely express. I don't know if it says something terrible about me, but you know what haunts me late at night? More than anything else? I know, in my heart of hearts that, knowing what I know now, if I had it to do over again I would have had that abortion.

I also find myself blaming myself over and over again, even though that radical womyn inside of me stands up and yells that I'm placing blame in the wrong place. I'm not sure what I intended to say with this message. I began writing it this morning and put it away again and finally decided to finish it this evening. I think that maybe I just wanted to share, I keep trying with Brandon and I keep failing. He simply doesn't care. When he wants to jerk off, everything goes right out the window.
Nothing ever justifies hacking, "invasions," threatening blog comments. They are never called for, never wise, never acceptable.

But there is something really wrong with some of these women, if they think that forcing their sons to repeat Dworkin's theory will stop them from using porn. If they fear their sons turning into rapists and cannot allow them to make their own decisions about their bodies, their fantasies, and what they do when they masturbate.

I have no idea whether this boy is using porn guiltily, convinced that his mom's radical theory is right and that his penis is an uncontrollable force. I hope (and suspect) that he realizes she's out of touch with reality and is using this porn in part to rebel.

But I've dealt with enough hearing that my sexuality is crazy, violent, destructive to know that even when you don't believe it, hearing people say it gets into your mind and your soul and makes you feel sick inside. And you hate yourself for desiring.

I know this particular person and clique don't represent feminism and aren't even worth the time of day. But I think we need to be aware of what some of our theory lends itself to. I think the sane, thoughtful anti-porners need to wrestle with this, struggle with it, understand why the people on the other side fear inducing sexual shame.

And I think we need to realize that, as much as we love to remind the ignorant that feminism isn't about hatred of, mistrust of, or violence toward men -- sometimes those of us who are prone to it can use the theory to look at men, or men's sexuality, or men's penises, as something worthy only of derision and fear.

Comments

( 51 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]hexyhex wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 03:34 am (UTC)
Oh.

Wow.

0_o
[info]miz_evolution wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 03:44 am (UTC)
ouch.
[info]fierceawakening wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 03:51 am (UTC)
what?
(no subject) - [info]miz_evolution - Aug. 7th, 2007 03:56 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - [info]fierceawakening - Aug. 7th, 2007 04:15 am (UTC) - Expand
[info]wrin wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 03:53 am (UTC)
The bit about having an abortion... wow.

Just, wow.
[info]beaq wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 05:05 am (UTC)
Oh my god.

I hope he never reads that, or he *is* lost to her. Or maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing, who knows? But it's got to be horrible for him right now. Parenting through religious insanity.
[info]fierceawakening wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 05:10 am (UTC)
I don't think it would be a bad thing to be lost to this person, honestly.

And it's not religion, it's radical feminism.
(no subject) - [info]belledame222 - Aug. 7th, 2007 05:37 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - [info]belledame222 - Aug. 7th, 2007 05:40 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - [info]belledame222 - Aug. 7th, 2007 05:46 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - [info]fierceawakening - Aug. 7th, 2007 02:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - [info]waytogojeremy - Aug. 7th, 2007 09:20 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - [info]belledame222 - Aug. 7th, 2007 09:34 pm (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - [info]belledame222 - Aug. 8th, 2007 10:09 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - [info]belledame222 - Aug. 8th, 2007 10:11 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - [info]fierceawakening - Aug. 8th, 2007 02:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - [info]beaq - Aug. 7th, 2007 05:49 am (UTC) - Expand
[info]shullie wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 07:59 am (UTC)
It's just so sad....

the poor lad is just rebelling... plain and simple - against whatver his mother 'hold dear'. I doubt if he is even aware of it as such.. only that he knows it piss his mother of a great deal and hurts her, he's a teenager FFs...and that's what they do. I suspect her older kid does it to except he is not as stupid/brave/honest to be as 'out' about it.

Reminds me of some converstations I use to have with some eveangelical Christian women I knew, who all swore their kids wouldn't and didn't have teenage sex etc.. except as my daughter was great friends with them, and so knew what they did and got up to....(and told/asked me for advice on their behalf sometimes) but it was all well hidden by them.

[info]fierceawakening wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 02:27 pm (UTC)
the poor lad is just rebelling... plain and simple - against whatver his mother 'hold dear'.

Yep. That and, well, teenage boys wank. They just do.
[info]dikaiosunh wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 11:13 am (UTC)
I don't know if one even needs to go so far as teenage rebellion to explain this kid's behavior. He's 15, right? When I was a young-to-mid-adolescent, a disproportionate amount of my and most of my male friends' time was spent thinking about sex, talking about sex, scheming to get our hands on pictures/videos of sex, and smuggling any porn we'd successfully gotten past parents (divorced fathers are great sources, by the way, as they often have *huge* stashes that they think are well-hidden from industrious teenagers and are too large to keep track of). I can only imagine that we'd have had much more porn had the web been around back then. Good, bad, or indifferent (and can you blame an adolescent too much for having an adolescent attitude towards sex?), teenage boys are probably going to try to look at porn.

That said, the one time my parents found anything, they tried to have a sincere and non-judgmental conversation with me about my budding sexuality, which mortified me far more than if they'd made me read Dworkin...
[info]shullie wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 11:37 am (UTC)
the rebelling part is the constant being 'found out'.. just to piss her off... I was a real pain when I was a teen... I would do things that I knew would really annoy my parents especially my dad... and then tell them when asked.. i.e 'at least I am being honest like they suggested and refusing to lie' I would call it and scream back at them when questioned/challanged about it, even if meant a beating....but really I did lie, hide etc., about things I didn't want them to know about and very sucesfully.

I agree as a mother of a boy (a young man now - he's 22 now) I know he had porn on the/his computer,(our spare one), My OH found it and had a quiet word with him that perhaps he should make sure he 'hid' the folder so that his mother or his younger sister didn't find it. My OH found it quite funny...

(no subject) - [info]fierceawakening - Aug. 7th, 2007 02:30 pm (UTC) - Expand
[info]amblinwiseass wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 12:34 pm (UTC)
Yet another alliance between soi-disant radfems and the monstrous Christian right!
Man, this is so fucked up I dreamed about it. (Which is perhaps not such a surprise considering that I spent something like a half-decade of my own upbringing with my dumbshit father and his crazy second wife beating me with the idea that I'd end up a child molester if I didn't quit jerking off. I didn't, y'know, have a special dream set aside just for this; it fit kind of neatly into last night's previously scheduled 'entertainment'.)

But, y'know, it's funny how these hardcore ideological anti-porn folks seem to find themselves walking alongside fundamentalist Christians of the finest misogynistic-homophobic-socially-repressive-miserable-bastard kind -- getting porn shops closed down, attempting to legislate pornography out of existence, and now abusing children!

'Cos that was what drove them to put me through all they did: crazy second wife's not just any crazy but fundie crazy, and Dad's a dumbshit and a coward so he went along. That's where I get my experience of Christian counselors, Christian twelve-step groups, and even a mental hospital -- which, being disgustingly secular, immediately found there was nothing wrong with me other than some entirely understandable situational depression, and sent me home after compassionately providing me a short respite over the Thanksgiving holiday that year. (When you need a mental hospital to give you a vacation from someone else's insanity...yeah, fun times. And I really did enjoy it in comparison to what I'd have had at home.)

But, anyway, yeah. I got mistreated by fundies, Brandon, the poor bastard, is being mistreated by someone who believes herself to be a radical feminist. In both cases, the basic idea seems to be that there is absolutely nothing we can do with our penises which does not cause real and significant harm to somebody. And that's not anything which a decent human being puts a kid through.

I know I can't go over there and say "hey, that's really fucked up, I just thought I'd mention". I have a penis, so my opinion doesn't matter; usually I can live with that, but in this case I hope someone who might have a chance of being listened to has said something, just for the kid's sake. Hopefully in a few years once he's out from under her sway it'll start to suck a lot less to be him.
[info]fierceawakening wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 02:36 pm (UTC)
Re: Yet another alliance between soi-disant radfems and the monstrous Christian right!
Which is perhaps not such a surprise considering that I spent something like a half-decade of my own upbringing with my dumbshit father and his crazy second wife beating me with the idea that I'd end up a child molester if I didn't quit jerking off. I didn't, y'know, have a special dream set aside just for this; it fit kind of neatly into last night's previously scheduled 'entertainment'.

gods. i'm sorry to hear all that. that's beyond fucked up.

a mental hospital -- which, being disgustingly secular, immediately found there was nothing wrong with me other than some entirely understandable situational depression, and sent me home after compassionately providing me a short respite over the Thanksgiving holiday that year.

heh, that tended to be what happened when I assumed my SM fantasies meant I was crazy, too. "You're fine." "I... I am?"

heh.

In both cases, the basic idea seems to be that there is absolutely nothing we can do with our penises which does not cause real and significant harm to somebody.

Yes.
(no subject) - [info]amblinwiseass - Aug. 7th, 2007 03:34 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - [info]fierceawakening - Aug. 7th, 2007 03:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - [info]amblinwiseass - Aug. 7th, 2007 05:16 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - [info]belledame222 - Aug. 7th, 2007 09:00 pm (UTC) - Expand
[info]belledame222 wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 04:30 pm (UTC)
Re: Yet another alliance between soi-disant radfems and the monstrous Christian right!
It's an old thread, anyway, and the board is down now (see hacking). But, yeah. And, if it is the same person I think we all think it is, I have the idea that she was in fact raised by fundies. The creepy "radfem" (male) ex that she just kicked to the curb was definitely raised by fundies (i remember them talking about it), and it really showed.

Old job, New job. It doesn't matter if you change the rationale. What matters is the black and white mentality, and the idea that increasingly harsh shaming and punishing are not only effective and proper ways of child rearing/socialization, but the only ones; and far healthier than raw sexuality, unchecked.


(no subject) - [info]amblinwiseass - Aug. 7th, 2007 05:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
[info]miz_evolution wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 05:10 pm (UTC)
All I can say about this at this point is this shit backfires. As much as some rad fems would like to blame the porn for everything and assume most people who get 'seriously into sex' have drug problems or were molested...I can say with some authority (after all, I ask people these questions) is a lot of the folk that I know who engage in a lot of "deviant" sex, or have countless partners, or do sex work of any sort for a living, or yeah, HATE women, were raised in environments where sex was dirty, people who had it were sluts or pervs, punishment and brow beating were handed down for, oh, watching porn or writing sex stories and they now are the way they are in part due to rebellion.

Holy backfire, batman!
[info]fierceawakening wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 05:17 pm (UTC)
a lot of the folk that I know who engage in a lot of "deviant" sex, or have countless partners, or do sex work of any sort for a living, or yeah, HATE women, were raised in environments where sex was dirty, people who had it were sluts or pervs, punishment and brow beating were handed down for, oh, watching porn or writing sex stories and they now are the way they are in part due to rebellion.

*nodsnods*
(no subject) - [info]morgan_dhu - Aug. 7th, 2007 06:03 pm (UTC) - Expand
[info]octogalore wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2007 09:07 pm (UTC)
I think it's the same idea as candy. None of the child-rearing books advise boycotting it, as that will have the opposite effect. If it's seen as an occasional available adjunct, kids will have a more normal attitude towards it.

This is coming from someone who lived on mostly candy and coke during freshman year, after having been restricted from these things previously.
[info]waytogojeremy wrote:
Aug. 8th, 2007 03:32 am (UTC)
you know, I can't even get into an emotional space where I analyze her behavior rationally or talk about the twists of political idealogy that lead to that point. That woman is a sadist and child abuser and she has merely found a political idealogy that justify her abusive behavior. My heart just breaks for that poor boy and how helpless I feel to protect him from this horrible woman. I hope there will be someone in his life who can help him heal from this; somebody who can teach him that his body isn't evil and dirty.
I wish those bastard hackers who were putting hateful shit on that site were on the side of good, so they could use their skills to find her real name and address and call cps on her.
[info]fierceawakening wrote:
Aug. 8th, 2007 03:37 am (UTC)
I wish those bastard hackers who were putting hateful shit on that site were on the side of good, so they could use their skills to find her real name and address and call cps on her.

Yep. Or even just tell him, sincerely and without Young Scriptkiddie Agendas that she's full of shit and help him deprogram from her crap.
(no subject) - [info]ravenmn - Aug. 9th, 2007 03:07 am (UTC) - Expand
[info]daisydeadhead wrote:
Aug. 9th, 2007 04:49 pm (UTC)
Kids will LIVE THROUGH hearing "I should have had an abortion!" (I just saw the episode of WEEDS where Elizabeth Perkins says that, and laughed my ass off.) I probably yelled it at my kid when she was going off the deep end, using Ecstacy, screwing the video store clerk and getting kicked out of band practice every day. She's recovered from the shock. We're friends. She has a child now, and she gets it: motherhood is extremely difficult.

"I wish I never had you!" and "I wish I was never born!" are tried and true adolescent-parent meltdowns, and I see no reason to tamper with tradition.

I don't think this will shock this kid as much as you all think, ESPECIALLY if he has already figured out that his mother is (southern term, e.g. SLINGBLADE) "nervous."
[info]fierceawakening wrote:
Aug. 9th, 2007 05:10 pm (UTC)
If it were just a comment, I would agree with you. But when it's forcing the kid to read literature, repeat it, demonstrate that he understands the theory, and show repeatedly that he understands why he is violence toward women and bad for doing something that the vast majority of teenage boys do (whether feminists or feminism agree or not), that I think is harmful. I don't necessarily think the kid will go crazy, but I think he'll have quite a bit of a cross to bear. Add in this stuff about the mother crying in front of him, the fact that her friends agree that he's a nothing and no one, and I find it hard to see how this is the standard parent and kid fight.
(no subject) - [info]belledame222 - Aug. 10th, 2007 02:06 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - [info]sushis - Sep. 25th, 2008 03:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
[info]daisydeadhead wrote:
Aug. 9th, 2007 06:32 pm (UTC)
I this account may be umm, you know, exaggerated a bit.

"Nerves."

I think he is probably way used to it by now, but I could be wrong.

My grandmother was a bit "nervous"--to say the least.
[info]belledame222 wrote:
Aug. 11th, 2007 11:37 am (UTC)
I hear you, Daisy, and yeah, I know, parenting's a rough gig, in some ways I'm sure I don't really empathize as much as I would if I were a parent myself. And yeah, there is a point buried in her screed, and I think is being manifested in this little contretemps, about how yep, it IS the ultimate taboo for a mother to say or even think annihilatory thoughts toward her own offspring. It strikes terror in everybody's hearts, quite possibly least of all young mens'.

And I can't speak for everyone, but for me: if it had only been, like,

"God, he's driving me crazy. You know, there are some days when I really wish I'd gone ahead and had that abortion."

...would have been unfortunate and might still gotten trolling remarks; but, I for one would have been much more sympathetic toward it being just venting in what was supposed to be private. Harsh, shocking, but...it's just thoughts. We all have 'em. Doesn't mean we can't also love 'em.

And, too, separately, sure, I think that "I disapprove of your porn watching, son, and while you're under my roof, my rule is that you don't do it," is totally reasonable, standard parenting. (I mean, it's -one- way of standard parenting, a more conservative way; just accepting "hey, it's porn, there are worse things" is also an option, but not everyone feels that way, I understand that). Rootie's talked about doing that in a way that I think is far far healthier, and all that I've seen of her own behavior and that of her sons I think speaks to that as well.

Maybe even both together might be possible in a way that wasn't so inflammatory. "He's driving me crazy, no matter how many times I tell him, he keeps downloading porn, he KNOWS how much I hate it and what it means to me and he does it anyway, sometimes I swear I just want to kill him. Or that I'd never had kids. SCREAM." Maybe that would've attracted the same attention, but you know, somehow I kind of doubt it. And maybe that was all she meant at the heart of all her typically purple language. Maybe.

But.

A couple things.

One, having read a number of her other pieces, she emphatically does -not- subscribe to the view that "it's just a fantasy;" that's why she's so opposed to the pr0n in the first place, you kwim? She's written pieces in the past about "please fantasize responsibly." She really seems to believe, from everything I've seen by her, that if you've sinned in your heart/fantasies, you've as good as done the deed. Or you inevitably will.

Which is why people are horrified, a lot of them, besides the "Medea taboo" thing -and- besides the "a young boy's Inalienable Right to Pr0n!" (which is annoying, yes). Because they're picking up on this from the context and tone of what she's saying here and what the others are saying here, even if they don't know her other posts. -She really means it.- She -means- it. So that

1) she really truly believes that he can have -no other motive- for watching porn than wanting to hurt and dominate women, and that if she can't somehow get him to stop and repent, he's going to go out and enact that on real women when he grows up.

In other words: he is Doomed to be like his abusive father, and all the other abusive men in poor Mom's life, unless he can stop wanking.

That's...intense. That's a lot more than the odd, "I hate you and I wish you were dead" (which I maintain can still be pretty devastating, and frankly shouldn't be coming from the parents right in the kid's face, but we're none of us perfect, and it's the overall stability of the relationship that matters). That's...-damning- him. Even if she doesn't literally kill him (I don't think anyone actually is thinking that) or even throws him out too early, whatever. That's some serious emotional abuse.

and, as noted above, the intense interest in his sexual -fantasies- (again, you'd have to see some of her other posts to really get the full depth of why some of us are going -squick-), the forced reading and -reciting- of someone else's Dogma...all of this has strong overtones of ambient sexual abuse as well as religious abuse, to me.

Finally, if Mom really believes that fantasy=intent/you REALLY mean it in your heart of hearts, what does it say that she's talking about wishing her son had been aborted?
(no subject) - [info]fierceawakening - Aug. 11th, 2007 02:48 pm (UTC) - Expand
[info]daisydeadhead wrote:
Aug. 9th, 2007 06:36 pm (UTC)
Excuse me, that should be: I THINK THIS ACCOUNT...

Naw, I'm CERTAIN. ;)
(Screened comment)
[info]fierceawakening wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2007 10:57 pm (UTC)
Paul (I've screened your comment because I don't want trackbacks to ED right now; if you want one or the other of us can repost it with the links omitted):

I don't want to weigh in too heavily with my personal feelings on this, as there's a lot of general anomie coming from some feminists right now toward other feminists (like me) who dare to suggest that BB's behavior is actually violent, harmful, and abusive, rather than simply venting of frustration.

Also, I don't support the way this is being handled -- the whole DoS attack thing isn't a tactic I support -- by the ED and /b/ and /i/ folks.

But I will say that I do hope that the people doing this detective work actually have the son's well-being at heart, rather than a sophomoric desire for "lulz." If all they want are lulz -- well, in that case they are not likely, to my mind, to do much real good for this poor guy.
(no subject) - [info]belledame222 - Aug. 11th, 2007 11:14 am (UTC) - Expand
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